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58 minutes reading time (11583 words)

Entrepreneurial Burn-out

How do you manage balancing all the demands upon your life without burning out? How do you manage balancing all the demands upon your life without burning out?

What do you do when you just don’t feel like facing all the issues anymore? The employee complaining, the bank harassing, and the suppliers demanding all seem to want a piece of you….but where do you find peace?

In this "Complete Entrepreneur" on clubhouse we explore what it means to be an entrepreneur that is facing the grim reality of burn-out. In the discussion a number of serial entrpreneurs then share candidly about how they have managed their marathon business journey rather than a short sprint and collapse.

 

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Complete Entrepreneur Burnout

[00:00:00] Entrepreneur burnout. Do entrepreneurs get burnout? Um, do they run out of steam or something like that or do they hit a brick wall? What is it? So what do you think about that, Jeff? Like, do they really get burnout? Do entrepreneurs burn out at all?

[00:00:22] Yeah, I think certainly looking back at my past, you know, 40 years in business, there's definitely times when I've I've felt burned out. And I think one of the challenges is recognizing burnout versus just, you know, overwhelming anxiety over the stresses of, of being an entrepreneur and starting a business and not being there for your family.

[00:00:43] And just all those things. You reach a point where all of those things sort of compound, and it just feels like the space around you is closing in more and more. And then you, you lose the ability to sort of make, make decisions and get out of that. And again, You know, that's how I've sort of experienced burnout, not sort of getting tired, but, but more of getting, uh, you know, not being able to get out of that, that feeling of anxiety or feeling of just being overwhelmed.

[00:01:09] Um, But that's how I, that's how, um, I seen burnout in my career. Uh, and I've definitely burned out from time to time. Yeah, it happens. I think it really does happen and it's not a really good feeling. Uh, it's a difficult, difficult thing to manage. If you're a person in the audience today that you say, you know what, boy, I got a story to share about this.

[00:01:32] Uh, this is what I went through or, Hey, this is how I dealt with this issue. Or look, I'm going through it right now. Uh, I just like, I'm hitting a wall. I just can't even face my business. I, I, there's something inside the hamster's not running on that wheel or something like that. Then please raise your hand, raise your hand up.

[00:01:53] And we'd love to invite you to the stage and hear from you. Um, as to hear from you, as you share your story on this topic, you know, I. Um, I must admit I never had a mental burnout. Oh. And I look at my last, my, um, my career last 40 something years. I've never had a mental burnout, but I definitely have physical ones.

[00:02:16] My friends used to say, to say to me, you know, what, you're working way too hard and everything like that. And, you know, being a young guy at the time, I would just ignore them. Of course. And, uh, a week later I'd ended up in bed cause I was sick and I wasn't sick because I picked up some crew cold or something like that.

[00:02:35] I was sick. Cause I, I had my body's said enough's enough. It's gonna stop every one time I sat up in bed and uh, and I wrote my to-do list that to try to dump it out of my head. And I had like three pages with two columns on each page type. A list of things I have to do, not the things I want to do, but things I have to do.

[00:03:00] And one of the things that really helped me out at that time was to really look at those lists and say, are they really have dues? Are they. Or do I just think they are, am I being, is my life being driven by other people or I, or am I in the driver's seat? And that really was a big revelation to me because I found, I was trying to please so many other people that my body was giving out on me.

[00:03:27] And so I, I made a whole series of changes, chapter of how to do, um, change the way I was living my wife life to help me get some more balance into it. But yeah, that's just something that happened to me. Well, before you, um, um, go to the people on stage, I just want to remind everyone. So we don't forget that this show is being recorded.

[00:03:51] Uh, and if you do come up on stage and participate in the show and share your thoughts, you are giving us permission to record you. And you can find recordings of this episode of the complete entrepreneur and others This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., which is the website for startup club. And there's, uh, other information about other shows there and other recordings, and you can sign up for our mailing list to be kept informed.

[00:04:12] And I will remind you if you come up on stage, your mic is on when you land on stage. So please mute yourself right away. And if it starts getting busy on stage after you've spoken, we may move you to the audience. So, sorry for interrupting, Michael, but I just want to make sure we mentioned that before you go into the speakers on stage.

[00:04:31] Oh, thanks very much for that jacket. It's always good to remind us of those things. I must admit. Yeah. So, so what is that like to deal with with entrepreneurial. Fatal. Um, it looks like you've just disappeared there. Cute love to hear from you on this topic, Q and um, a great name. The only person I know who's Q is actually from James Bond.

[00:04:52] So hopefully you can share some great insights anyway, on entrepreneurial Burnett. Yeah, I actually can't. I mean, thank you guys for the space. Thank you for the great moderation and giving us a breakdown of what this room is really all about. Um, in regards to the entrepreneurial burnout, um, dealing with that, one of the things that I really cherish is being able to create a competitive environment for the people that will help me.

[00:05:24] Um, the people that I will bring on board as my team, giving them, uh, uh, putting them into a competition based. Okay. Interview or filter. So to say so that they can prove themselves, they can prove that they're the best at what they do and what they're bringing to the table. And also, um, be able to make sure that I get the delegation done in a way to where I optimize delegated.

[00:05:50] And then secondly, um, on the individual level, just internally making myself better. So that burnout is less likely to be a factor is I like to be able to fast on Sundays. Mondays is going to be my most ridiculously overwhelming day. My workload is going to be at its height on a Monday. Then I'd like to fast the day before, because it does something to my brain.

[00:06:19] It makes my brain work at a higher level, no food, no drink, no nothing. And this is a guy who goes to the gym six days a week. Like I'm a gym rat. So that food, that nutrition should be very important for me, but to be a high performance entrepreneur, because burnout and high-performance go hand in hand, I found that just making sure that I get my body out of this.

[00:06:44] Shock my body shock my system. And then on the day after put myself in a position to where I'm pushing myself to the limits so that I really do know what my limits are. So I'm not confused about my limits. And, uh, yeah, so I appreciate the space and I will relinquish the mic. Okay. Cute. What a great thing like, wow.

[00:07:06] So, so one of the things you're talking about there is when you're looking at entrepreneurial burnout, the first thing you're looking at really use your body. What are you doing with your body and for you, what works for you is the ease of fasting once. Absolutely because, because when it comes to your brain, um, when your brain is deprived of food, it goes into this mode of shock.

[00:07:31] Um, and it just has to perform at a higher level. And, um, this works better than caffeine too, because it also creates that shock to your body where your body is in. The flight mode and being able to be able to simulate situations or to create situations where you can increase your own adrenaline, or you have the ability to, um, turn on your fight or flight instinct for the moments that are very crucial is good because, I mean, I'm not doing drugs, I'm not gonna, um, overdose on any type of coffee or out substance that might not be super good for me.

[00:08:09] So the only thing I have is just trying to keep it natural, trying to keep myself healthy and just shocking all of the toxic, um, lethargic newness out of my system. If that makes sense. Yeah, cute. Um, this is Jeffery up at the top and, and, um, I've read a lot about fasting and practice, the intermittent fasting, uh, myself, and one of the things what might actually be happening.

[00:08:30] It's not shocking the system as much as your brain goes into this hunt mode, because if you go back to the beginnings of man, When everything was feast or famine. So when, when you had a lot of food, that was typically representative of being after the hunt. So it's okay to be kind of lethargic because you've got your food around when you starve yourself, when you start fasting, um, your, your caveman brain thinks that, okay, the food from the last hunt is all gone.

[00:08:59] It's time to hunt again. And so you sharpen your awareness and you sharpen your mind. Um, like you said, because your body's preparing yourself to go out for the hunt to find more food. So in your case, the hunt is diving into the entrepreneurial work. That's got to get done that week. So you're actually getting yourself ready for the hunt.

[00:09:17] That's what I think, but I think it's a great point. Yeah. It's interesting. You bring that up cute. Like, um, I must admit, like when I'm presenting at a conference, um, like last two days I've been presenting, I've presented four times at a conference in online one and one of the things I make sure I do is I never ever eat before.

[00:09:37] Um, cause it, it, it, it turns your brain into a higher level. It's almost like that. And so you're, you're firing on all cylinders and that, that I think is really good, but it's interesting how you're using that in a different way is keeping your entrepreneurial mind, uh, really sharp as well. So you're not going to, you know, you're sort of trying to, um, prevent burnout.

[00:10:00] It's not dealing with it, but you're preventing it, which is actually an interesting concept. And.

[00:10:09] And if I could expound on that in a point in a, in a, in a way that you guys may have not touched on is just to say that mental stamina. So we, we, we touched on the clarity that it brings, but the mental stamina is also a huge factor because burnout and mental stamina are directly connected. And in regard to having that little, that ability to just dig deep and have more energy to complete the task, that also gives me the ability to know exactly how much I can really do.

[00:10:40] I like to push myself to the limits on things, because when I'm in a situation and it may be a burnout situation that flips to be potentially overwhelming or burnout, I like to be able to know from experience each Monday, what I'm capable of so that I can easily, um, avoid situations that are going to create.

[00:11:04] Yeah, that's fabulous. So, Colin, um, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, on what Q's talking about there, but just also your experiences with entrepreneurial burnout.

[00:11:19] Um, I'm going to hear my hands more, the feedback. Hold on. All right. Are we okay? Sound wise now. All right, good. So I'm just here with Michelle. We're working on, on a deal on the west coast, Florida, and we're burning ourselves out of here. And we started early in the morning and working we'll be home late at night tonight.

[00:11:40] Um, but, uh, look, I'm the worst example of somebody who can manage this really well. Um, you know, I, I, you know, I've done so many companies and it's just been a toll. I tell ya. It's been it's, it's, didn't spin quite an incidence. Been tough on me and, you know, I've gained weights, I've done, you know, I've lived an unhealthy lifestyle.

[00:12:04] I, you know, I self medicate sometimes with wine just to relax and calm myself down. Um, like there are a couple of things I've done in the last couple of years that have made, uh, a bit of a difference for me. One is, um, when I do go home at night, I sometimes transform myself. I, um, have a hot tub that we built in our backyard and, um, I'll get into that hot tub.

[00:12:33] I'll relax for 10, 20 minutes come out. And I feel like a different person. Uh, and I think that, you know, that helped that's helped me out a lot just to get into a different mental state to sort of end the Workday. And the second thing is I started crossing. Two years ago. Now I do CrossFit three times a week and it's, it's deadly.

[00:12:53] It kills me. And I'm not like Q there, if you say six days a week, you're working out. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to starving yourself and other day. Um, but those are two things that I've done. And I do think they have made a difference. And I, I'm trying to find a way to balance my life a little more so that I don't let the burnout have negative impacts on me.

[00:13:21] Yeah, it's interesting. You say that. Cause it's just the, the cut and thrust of being an entrepreneur. It can be pretty deadly at times. It really can be, uh, to your body and also your mental state. And I know myself, um, there's a times I go along and, uh, my wife called it the freeze zone. That's Freese, F R E E Z E Z E.

[00:13:47] Um, and what I do is I just freeze everything around me. I just get so. In introspective or solving a problem. And my mind's there, my body may be at the dinner table, but I just freeze the whole family with the atmosphere and its intersection quite terrifying at times. And I don't know how I do it or something like that, but it's almost like, I guess when I think about it, it's, it's a mental, uh, it's a mental burnout as my brain begins to really turn it in Woodley and, and clamp down on something.

[00:14:26] And it's, it's, it's a challenge to overcome that. And it's great to hear from you call it that you, you have various, um, techniques you're putting into place right now. I, one of the things I must admit I do do is I go for walks. I find going for a walk is the best thing. Like my gosh, uh it's particularly, it's a nice day.

[00:14:44] It's just it's stress relieving, but thanks for much for that. So I'd love to hear from her. Shireen. What's your thoughts on this on entrepreneurial burnout? Um, hi, thanks for having me on, um, I think from experience, I can say I've experienced burnout personally, as well as being as entrepreneur. Um, and something that I found it was because a lot of it is stemmed from my own, um, beliefs and mindset around.

[00:15:14] Who I was and how I had to show up. So I had this super woman complex where I thought I could do it all. Um, I could juggle everything class and life, the business side of things. Um, and I don't need anybody. I don't need to ask for help. Um, and I think that eventually led to me burning out because at the time I was a new mum, I had a baby who was four months old, so I wasn't sleeping.

[00:15:38] My diet was really bad. Um, and I was doing all the business side of things by myself. Um, so eventually that led to complete like a burnout because I was exhausted mentally, physically, emotionally, you name it. And what changed for me, whereas the factor I had to really work on my mindset, um, and asked for help and not just in terms of business or, you know, delegate, I could, um, hire people for certain tasks, but also my personal life and things that when I, you know, even like getting somebody to do the cooking, for example.

[00:16:11] So I have to think about it because the burnout for me was because I was constantly thinking that of the tasks I have to do for, you know, the business. And I know it's small things, but even the chores, it just adore. Um, I probably come from a woman's perspective here, but, um, you know, I was constantly go, go, go and I wasn't stopping and just breathing.

[00:16:32] They, you know, just taking like that deep breath and just tuning in to the here and the now, um, it was always like, what's the next task? What's the next, next thing I have to do. So for that, for me, that was a massive shift where I just paused and I said, okay, you know what? I need to focus on the, here on the now.

[00:16:51] Um, so stop that hustle culture, stop that nonstop it like jumping to the next task and the next task and the next task. Um, you know, the interesting thing is I'm also a training counselor and I've got background in psychology. Um, so I know all about burnout and stress, or I had all of that, but when it come, when it came to implementing things and being aware for myself, um, it kind of just hit me.

[00:17:15] Um, and I wasn't prepared for it. Basically. I was when I began the entrepreneurship journey, um, taking regular time off, um, just completely switching off. And I think, um, the technology is amazing, but it also has these pitfalls. So literally like when you, when I say switch you off. I'm taking time off that is moving away from the devices, not even switch you've are looking at your phone, even turning you off.

[00:17:39] If you have to not checking any messages, because you know, as soon as you turn your phone on, there's going, they're going to be bombarded with information. And then that's again, like you're thinking about things and it's just switching you back into that work mode. Um, so that definitely really helped me, um, and finding things that really recharged me fully, like really fills my cup, um, whether that was taking forks or, you know, baking for example is really good.

[00:18:08] One for me, um, just finding little things to do that. I thought, you know, this, this really is just allowing me to be present, um, and being in nature, for example, and I can tune into where I am in this moment and be happy in that moment. Um, and be connected rather than just worrying about, you know, the million tasks that you have as.

[00:18:33] Wow. You shared a lot there sharing it. It was fantastic. Like it really was like, um, I think the w one of the points, uh, I wanted to emphasize there was the I'm just pausing, pausing in life and it doesn't have to be go, go, go. One of the things I found as an entrepreneur is that it's actually the rare thing that it is urgent.

[00:19:01] If, if something become, if you, if you're running your business from one urgency to another urgency, to another urgency, there's more, more likely or not. It's because you probably haven't planned. And if it's going from one crisis to the next crisis, to the next crisis, then really take a look at what you're doing and sort of say, okay, I need a plan.

[00:19:22] And a part of the plan is put some things in place, which gives you time because there's entrepreneurs. And I think I mentioned this last week, one of the things that we really need to do more of is actually to think and less do. And I find some times as many entrepreneurs I speak with they're frenetic, they're just rushing from one crisis to another crisis, to another crisis versus just stopping and saying, okay, how do I stop all the crisis?

[00:19:57] What have I got to do? Because eventually if you're running from one thing to another thing to another thing you will burn. And I'm impressed with what Q said before of like essentially like is his day of fasting each week is also it's changing the mindset. Uh, w which was quite interesting. Um, so Jeff, what is, what else did Sharine say that really struck you and you thought, gee, that's, that's actually really good.

[00:20:27] What she's saying that, that something really, really hits you there did Michael and I wrote it down because I wanted to make sure we didn't gloss over it. And that's when Shareen mentioned asking for help. And that's something that entrepreneurs typically have a hard time doing, especially at the beginning, because as Shereen herself, You have a little bit of this superhero mindset where, you know, you're going to change the world, you're going to build this great company.

[00:20:52] You're going to do it all. And, and it's really hard sometimes to ask for help. And yet that's something that can make a huge difference. If you feel like you're overwhelmed, if you're starting to burn out or you are burnt out, you know, you need to have the confidence to be able to ask for help, to tell someone on your team, tell your, your business partner or your personal partner, that, you know what I mean, you know, right now I'm just feeling like I'm overwhelmed.

[00:21:16] I'm getting burnt out. Can you pick up some slack for me? You know, who can I delegate some tasks to? So really, you know, being self-aware enough to know that you need help and then being confident and vulnerable enough to actually ask for help, I think are really important. So I'm glad you brought that up Shereen.

[00:21:35] Yeah. Thank you for that Shereen. Really do appreciate that. Um, I must admit, it's funny, Jeff, you mentioned that as well. Uh, I'm actually in a conference. Um, uh, I've been there for the last couple of nights, a couple of nights, I say, because I've been up from midnight until 7:00 AM, uh, last two nights. And I got one more night of this and I mean, speaking number of times, and one of the things I did was I actually pulled my wife aside and said, look, I need some help the next few days, I just need some help and you're gonna have to bear with me because it's, it's, it's like having jet lag with not having gone anywhere.

[00:22:10] And it's not, not a pleasant experience, but you know, it's getting that help is so critical. I sat down with my kids and I said, uh, Hey, dad's going to, he's going to be pretty rough for Dan's across the next few days. And there's not a problem. We're going to go and sort things out. We will organized dinner and all that sort of stuff.

[00:22:30] It was really, it was great for them to do that, but to ask for even those simple things, Uh, it is, is wonderful. Um, and to have people around you, in fact, one of the things I've found is the people who really love and care about you. They want to help you actually want to help you, and they feel loved when they help you.

[00:22:53] And that's, that's something, um, I think many entrepreneurs need to realize. So Michelle, um, I, I, it's great to have you in the room here, whatever great moderators, um, on the complete entrepreneur. And what's your thoughts around entrepreneurial burnout? Have you ever experienced this yourself? Or like I know was trying to summarize a huge topic.

[00:23:19] Colin's laughing at me. I'm going to tell you guys, first of all, this is a great subject. And, and ladies, uh, I'm in the midst of really like starting to try to recover from burnout and it's brutal and I'm brutal because I let myself get so bad that I, you know, start to start to suffer from health issues.

[00:23:40] Okay. I'm being very candid here. So now I'm like, okay, I have to literally get my S shit together because this is horrible. And if I let myself go any worse, I'm not going to be, you know, I'm not going to be able to do what I love because I actually thrive on work and I thrive on the whole adrenaline.

[00:24:01] But you know, for me, things that I'm doing and I'm learning a lot, listening to everyone here. Thank you. Is I'm really like making myself get up every morning now and walk. I always say. Early and run to the office. Okay. Like don't even, you know, wash your hair, brush it once, run to the office. That's me.

[00:24:20] Jeff knows Jeff and I are use are always the first ones there. Okay. And there were one of the latter wants to leave, but I'm trying to, like, for me, another huge thing is I need a lot of sleep. So I'm trying to force myself, even if I wake up at two or three in the morning, which I usually do just to like, if I have to get up and write something down, do that, but I'm trying to make myself lay there and not just jump out of bed and start working because for years I worked, you know, an international market.

[00:24:53] And then I think a lot of everybody here on the, um, session knows, we were also very fortunate in the pasture that we did a huge acquisition of the company that Jeff and Colin are the founders of, we actually sold it to go daddy. So it took a huge toll for me. And I'm now. You know, like I said, I I'm suffering.

[00:25:14] So right now I'm really like, okay. I can't like, feel like crap, continue to feel like crap. And I'm really pushing myself to take better care of myself and, you know, not let myself get any worse. So any suggestions that anybody has, I, I really do appreciate. Yeah, let me take it, Michelle. I appreciate your candor, your openness to share like that.

[00:25:38] Like, wow. It's it's great. Um, do you interesting, you brought up that issue of sleep though. Uh, I I've never had problems with sleep other than I have to get the right amount of sleep is my wife. She wants like nine, 10 hours even better. She was like, she's she feels sleep the whole time. Me, if I get any more than six hours, then, then I just suffer so badly.

[00:26:06] I feel like I'm exhausted. Um, the whole, the whole than the next day. Yeah. So I think everyone has the right amount of sleep they get. And one of the most important things as entrepreneurs we need to work out is how, how much sleep do we really. Not how much sleep. Um, uh, do you think everyone else is telling you you need, but how much do you really, what is, what are the optimum managed sleep for you?

[00:26:32] Um, and for me it was about six hours. If I get less than that, it's not good. If I get more than that, it's not good either. So it's about six hours and that's, uh, and I'm ready to go. And I don't feel that I don't have that sinking exhaustion on the inside. And, uh, but anyway, so thanks for much for sharing Michelle.

[00:26:52] Um, Lisa Love to hear from you on this topic of entrepreneurial. Thank you so much. This is a topic I am super passionate about and Michelle and Shireen, I can totally relate. Um, the one main thing I wanted to just add and emphasize is that once you reach burnout, it's an accumulation of a lot of time and it's not something that's easily reversible.

[00:27:19] And I realized in January that I was suffering and now looking back, like after I've gone through what I've gone through, like pretty much like near fatal burnout. And I've been an agency owner entrepreneur for 20 years and superwoman, you know, mom, and, you know, being able to like wake up at four o'clock in the morning and go to sleep at midnight.

[00:27:39] And it all kind of caught up with me, um, because of a lot of things we all went through with the pandemic and then other life events that some of them were very positive life events, but big life events can also. Take a toll on you. Like, um, somebody getting married or selling a house. And I've learned a lot about burnout over the past six months, and it's almost similar to trauma and having, you know, recovering from a trauma or having PTSD.

[00:28:08] So for me, wine walking, meditation sleep, these were all temporary fixes for me and I needed something radical and bigger too. I had the awareness to actually realize this and I'm like Shereen. I mean, I, I'm not a therapist, but I wrote a book called digital detox secrets. I'm a yoga instructor. Like I had all of the kind of like attributes to be able to avoid burnout.

[00:28:34] And I still couldn't. And for me, the solution was, um, very radical. I wanted to find a retreat, a place to go to, and I had a couple of recommendations and I ended up going to canyon ranch for 10 days. I don't know if anybody's ever heard of it, but. Whether it's canyon ranch, or whether it's, if you're suffering from burnout.

[00:28:55] Like, I, I really don't think that sleep and meditation and walking are going to actually like reverse it. I think something transformational and radical needs to be done for more than, let's say five days of silence and really kind of like undoing yourself and be able to reset and reset in a way where you're eliminating a lot of things that aren't bringing you joy, happiness, and what you might think it's bringing you success, but it's really not.

[00:29:25] And I think that, um, It's easy to do it yourself, but you're surrounded by people around you that are still having these bad habits that are causing themselves and also kind of making you react to like avoiding burnout. So it's, it's a bigger problem, I think, than we realize, I, I really believe it's, it's almost like a silent killer and I'm, I feel so much better than I did six or seven months ago, but I really feel like I have a lot of compassion and empathy for so many people that are suffering.

[00:29:55] And I just want to emphasize how serious it is. And it's kind of become this buzzword where I'm not saying that's not as serious, but it's, it's more serious than just a buzz word. Yeah. Lisa, I completely agree with you. What you're saying is that sometimes you just got to take yourself out of the circle, the situation you're in.

[00:30:15] And, uh, I know that there's a pre preventative to burnout as such and for me to help get me refocused. And if I have to go. And, uh, I, I think I've mentioned it before on the complete entrepreneur, as my wife says, you become unbearable to live with. You need to go away and get your head straight. And I just need to go away for a few days.

[00:30:39] I just got to do it if I don't do it, like it's just, I find I get increasingly agitated. And, and one of the things that, um, one of the things I don't know if you've talked about, um, about this before, but entrepreneurs traits are very similar to those of bipolar characteristics. So we are, we have racing thoughts.

[00:31:00] We get obsessive, we get, um, isolated, we feel invincible. And these are all traits that we have to be careful because there are success traits, but they also can work against us in so many ways. It's, I've just learned so much about the entrepreneur mindset and how you have to be careful, um, you know, the negative side of things and how it can really creep up and have negative impacts on you.

[00:31:26] Like, like burnout. Yeah. Because it's really stressful and you're, you're running a business and you've got to make all the, you've got all these financial commitments and everything, and then you got all these people say, staff are at you as well. Then you got supplies are at you. And then you've got clients there at you.

[00:31:46] And then you've got like compliance type issues are at you. And then you had deadline after deadline, after deadline and you, and you think, oh my gosh, if that particular employee says one more thing, I'm going to explode. If you're feeling like this, then you know, what, if it could be that you're going down this path that Lisa and some of the others here between.

[00:32:09] And you're coming to a point of burnout and it's how to break that cycle is just so, so important. But I'd love to hear from, um, Gorav, Gorav, uh, I hope you've said your name properly. Uh, I'd love to hear about you on, on this topic, on the complete entrepreneur, where we're looking at entrepreneurial burnout, grab welcome to the complete entrepreneur.

[00:32:37] Thank you, Michael. And hope. I mean, you have actually, uh, you know, pronounced my name correctly. Uh, it's going to be pronounced in the same manner only. Uh, and, uh, I it's 3m in India, so I'm have joined from India. And, um, actually there's a meeting with this, uh, issue at hand that entrepreneurial burnout, because I faced this thing.

[00:32:58] I have been facing this thing for a couple of weeks now. And today when I was in a state where I was, you know, developing a pivot, right. Uh, on an idea, you know, some features, I was so stuck with that thing. I was so obsessed, then I was restless and I got out of my home, but my car took a long drive and then sorted some things in my head and then came back with a couple of ideas.

[00:33:24] So yes, burnout is really there. And I agree to Lisa that, you know, you get obsessed and I have done this thing in past that, you know, whenever you're getting obsessed with something, you know, it's, uh, you know, whereas I like, you know, it's, it's, uh, being a parent to work here. You know, you have to look at each and every aspect of the kid's growth, do it be, you know, go to market strategy, do it be consumer segmentation, doing, we talking to customers and doing the, you know, uh, getting features, don't be talking to a tech team, you know, what they're working on and how they're deliberate of this are going to be doing.

[00:34:01] I'd be looking for different sort of, uh, you know, help, you know, from different people. So there are a lot of things to work on when you are a entrepreneur. So yes, burnout is there, but, uh, as you've rightly mentioned that, you know, uh, you have to be an observer in that whole scenario. You have to just pick yourself out, you know, from that conflict, which is going on in your mind and just look where are things lane and then solve it like a puzzle.

[00:34:28] Okay, I've got this thing. I need to attach this to, you know, a, to B, B to C, C to D and I'll be forming all of my, you know, uh, what he says, things in alphabetical order. So that is really helpful. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm not that experienced as you guys are. I'm very, you know, uh, nascent in my entrepreneurial journey.

[00:34:49] So this is my second side of, is I'm working on, I think that graph, I think you really said, so key thing there, which is solving. That's almost using your entrepreneurial skills to solve, solve your entrepreneurial burnout. Almost it's using that same, it's a puzzle. And one of the pieces of the puzzle could be, I just need to go along and get away and you needed to go for a drive in the car or whatever it is.

[00:35:13] The other thing I want to come back to Lisa in a second. One of the things you mentioned there just in passing, which I think is actually a key, you've mentioned two things. One is you just need to do a reset. Sometimes as entrepreneurs, we need that reset to get freshly energized. Um, and the second thing was the off switch and that's the, the, the off switch on our devices.

[00:35:35] Like we're so connected nowadays. And people can get us all the time, uh, whether it's a smart devices or computers or whatever it is. Yeah. People can get at us. And I think somewhat of the most underrated feature of any phone is the off switch and it's okay. You can use the office. I think there should be dual boards across the freeway, says there's magnificent iPhone 15 and has an off switch and you just turn it off and yeah, it's it's times like that.

[00:36:08] We just need to go and just turn off sometimes and just chill out. Stop, smell the roses. Enjoy the kids who are seven years old. Cause they're never going to be seven years old. Again, give your significant other, uh, a bouquet of flowers or whatever it is, or go out for dinner and spend that time together.

[00:36:34] Why? Because you'll never get that time again. So, how do you, how do you balance that and how do you get energized from those moments? I know myself, I get really energized from being with my family and just to seeing them and seeing sometimes we have a big family time and just watching my kids now that they're older, interacting with one another and seeing the love that my wife and I have taught them into playing amongst them.

[00:37:05] It is just so special. And I sit back and I get energized by that. So, Colin, I just want to come to you for a second and just ask, ask you like, what is when you've experienced those real crunch times when you think, oh my gosh, there's just nothing left in the tank here. What, what recharges you? What keeps you going?

[00:37:29] What, what, what, what gets you to that next?

[00:37:35] Yeah. So I, you know, I think there are free entrepreneur goes through moments where it's extreme and you need to operate, uh, on an extreme level on that with the team here selling to GoDaddy, it was four months, it was grueling, it was weekends, it was evenings. And I think it's acceptable. I'm going to throw that out.

[00:38:00] I think that's acceptable because you're, you're, you're, you're, you're moving a very big dial. You're really achieving something, but what's not acceptable is to continue to do that over and over again. And you need to have those breaks in between. I have to say that, you know, one thing is spending that time on vacation with your family.

[00:38:22] Um, that is important and it isn't two weeks a year. I know the American college. Has sort of this two week a year holiday mentality, but I actually really believe that, you know, the European and the Canadian might on Canadian background, but live in the United States where, you know, you'd take off the four or five weeks a year.

[00:38:43] I think that's a necessary balance. But one of the things that I think I discovered early on as a serial entrepreneur was that I and I needed to operate the businesses very differently to skill them. And the one thing that I did is, and I mentioned this before in another show is I learned to delegate responsibilities, not tasks because as entrepreneurs, we worry about every component of our business.

[00:39:12] And I see this with my wife. She runs a school and she burns herself out. She does work 12 hours a day, but she's worried about everything from the air conditioning units to the hiring, the teachers to marketing, to count. It's insane as entrepreneurs, we need to delegate out the accounting and not worry about that.

[00:39:35] We need to delegate out marketing. Uh, in my case, you know, Michelle obviously was running Don club. She was the president of DOD club. Jeff was the COO of pod.com and.club and a number of other businesses. And he's helping out with the startup club and Michelle's running store. I get to the matter is if you can operate your businesses by delegating responsibility and not tasks that can make a huge difference in the entrepreneur's life.

[00:40:05] Hey, I completely agree with you with that, uh, call it like delegating responsibility. I remember you first mentioned that in the complete entrepreneur, probably nearly six months ago and I went away and I actually thought about that for literally days. I thought about it for days. And I just thought, you know what, I'm going to stop.

[00:40:25] I'm going to make sure I'm doing that. I'm delegating responsibility. Cause so easy as entrepreneurs, particularly if you're very capable, dare I say it is to go and pick up, pick up things and delegate tasks. And that means you're having to do all the thinking. The responsibility. And that was, uh, that was a great, great way you put that.

[00:40:46] And I know I've appreciated that so much, but, um, here we are, we're the complete entrepreneur and where we're taking a look at a topic, which is, can be quite confronting in some ways, which is entrepreneurial burnout. And there's a lot of things that entrepreneurs can do to help prevent burnout. But there's also, what do you do when you're in the middle of burnout?

[00:41:08] When you say I can't do anymore, I want to share something that I found was really useful. This is a, this is many years ago. Like I said, when I was laid up in bed because good luck, Michelle. I wasn't mentally burdock, but my body just gave out. That was just, I was in my twenties. And it just got like when it was dying around me, because I wasn't doing the right things to look after it.

[00:41:32] And I went and read the book, the seven habits of highly effective. I know it's an oldie and I know it's a goodie and I read that and I thought I've got to do this. And I began just changing a whole lot of things and, uh, it really, really helped me out. So if you're, if you're in the audience right now and you're, and you're listening to this, let me tell you, if you haven't read the seven habits, it's a great book and more, more newer book, which I found is really good.

[00:42:04] It's. Uh, by Ray Dalio, uh, once again, a really good book of leaving a life of principles, um, according to a set of principles and simplifies everything down. And I found that it's actually a really good book the first half. It's great. Second half gets a little bit, little bit Harrier to read, but the first half was great.

[00:42:27] There's a couple of books there. Look, I was wondering Michelle, Jeff or Colin. Do you have any like, uh, any tools or books you've found has been useful for you over the years in, in helping you out or even others out of the situation they're in, in terms of burnout? Well, it's interesting. You should say that.

[00:42:49] Um, for me, it's actually not reading business books, but reading other literature because it's, you know, I think like several people said it's hard to shut your brain off, especially when you're having an issue in a business. You know, it's just you, you just obsess about it. So for me, if I can like immerse myself in some nice fiction, I find that immensely helpful.

[00:43:16] It's almost, you know, meditative for me personally. Yeah. So I've got to ask what's your favorite book and they'll come back to you, Jeff. Oh my gosh. I have so many, but I liked like Gabriel Marquez. I liked that surrealism. Um, I love that kind of, you know, I love science fiction, which I know you're a science fiction author, Michael, but I thing that's like, sir, real, I really enjoyed that.

[00:43:45] Uh, that's great. I do like science fiction because it takes me to a different place and I find it it's wonderful. Like just that whole escapism, but Jeff is coming back to you and you wanted to share something there. Yeah. Well, I wanted to shift shift a little bit and ask a different question. We've been talking a lot about our own burnout as entrepreneurs, but I think, you know, one of the challenges we have also is to recognize our team and recognize when team members are burning out.

[00:44:17] Because as entrepreneurs, especially in the early days, when you have a small team, you may have a co-founder and then you have a handful of employees. And at that stage, everyone. Plays such a critical role in the growth and success of that company that it's important for, for you as the founder to recognize and, and support, you know, potential burnout of your team members, you know, and just as we talked about, what do we do for ourselves?

[00:44:43] What do you do for team members? How do you recognize when a team member is, is on the verge of burning out and how can you support them when they're burning out? Yeah, look, check. Wow. That's a great question. And calling you one to jump in and say something about that, and then I'll follow up with some thoughts.

[00:45:02] Yeah. I just wanted to hold on. I just got some bad feedback. Hold on. Sorry. I just wanted to mention that I belong to an organization called EO as an entrepreneur. It's an, it's an entrepreneurs organization. It was founded by Michael Dell and Bernhardt initiative to other people. Who've had a. Uh, committed suicide.

[00:45:29] And they began to realize that, you know, entrepreneurs, we have this facade that we really are, you know, superheros impervious to all of the pain and anguish that occurs. But the fact of the matter is we are on roller coasters and it's fricking, you know, it's tough. And EO started this organization to allow business owners to come together and communicate and share their personal issues, um, their business issues.

[00:46:04] And I've done that since 1996. So I've been in that sort of for what, 25 years now. Wow. 25 years I've been belonged to this organization. And by every month we meet and we meet and we talk in a very confidential private non-judgemental and. And, you know, that's hard for entrepreneurs because, you know, when people get together like the brag, they liked to show off, but you know, if you get to trust a group of people that you console with in regards to, you know, the issues that you're having, it makes a huge amount of difference when you share.

[00:46:39] And I think for me, that's probably been the biggest thing to help new with my Myrna. Yeah. Open, openly sharing. It's just so important. Isn't it like, um, to be able to, to have a place you can go to, to openly share it. So it's almost like an alcoholics anonymous for, uh, for entrepreneurs and to be able to, to, to, to share openly with someone and get some, some good feedback as well, to what you're going through and how to manage that.

[00:47:11] But what a powerful story that is that, um, that they set that organization up after such a tragedy, is this phenomenal. It really is. It's interesting. You, you talk about. What do you do with your staff, your team? Uh, Jeff, I've got a couple of team members have been up all night, the last two nights with me.

[00:47:31] And they're about to be up a third night, the whole night. And it's like, how do you, how do you manage that? And that dedication and things like that. How, how do you reward it, but rewarded in such a way that it's, um, it's showing you really care, but it's not showing you care so you can get more out of the machine.

[00:47:52] You kick, you actually do care. And I think that, that's the thing that I always look for in when I see unbelievable, um, sacrifices by not only them, but also the families by letting them do say something like this and volunteering and willing to do something like this, um, is to not give them a pat on the back and even a monetary reward or something, but doing something meaningful.

[00:48:22] And I know it also in the past where, um, where the whole team has really, really put in, um, we'll have a celebration event. Yes. But we invite all the wives and I make sure we give all the wives like a big bouquet of flowers. And I make a point of saying, I just want to thank you for letting your husband's or your, your, your wife or something like that, depending on the sex to say, thank you very much for letting them work so hard.

[00:48:50] I just want to say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, during this period of time. And, and then you obviously give them a show of your appreciation as well, and other other means as well. But, um, it's, it's a challenge though. It's, um, managing those teams, you know, keeping that dynamic and being really aware of.

[00:49:13] On what's going on and the stresses, and sometimes the stresses, for instance, in a team, I've got nothing to do with the stresses of the business. It could be some stresses happening at home, um, or something like that. But yeah. So, um, Michelle, what's your thoughts around that? Like you manage a team, um, and you're going through a tough time, cause you've just been like really putting in and you look around the team around you.

[00:49:41] How do you then take that next step about like, as, almost like another step forward for the sake of the team, because you want to look after them as well. Like, is there anything that you particularly do? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, for us, we don't like look at the time clock or whatnot, but I felt like it's really having a culture where you let people take care of themselves and there's no.

[00:50:11] You don't reprimand them from that, or you don't punish them from that as long as they're getting the work done. And if they're having problems or discussing it with you. So for me, you know, I've worked at very corporate companies before where, you know, they would say that, but they didn't really mean it.

[00:50:28] Right? Like you knew you would be punished. Like I've heard businesses say things like, you know, if you don't come in on Saturday, don't come in on Monday. But for us, I, you know, we really try to build that culture where, you know, like we have some people that really like to work out, so they get to work a little bit later and, and it's okay.

[00:50:47] And, you know, we, we work around it a bit and. You know, if somebody is working really hard or they're having some kind of personal issue, trying to create a very safe environment where they can talk to you about it and where, you know, for us, you know, we'll just tell people why don't you take a day, you know, and take care of your family or, or do what you need to, you know, we really encourage people to try to take care of themselves.

[00:51:12] I feel like that's the best way to do it. Yeah. But it's also as a leader in your organization, being aware of that, like aware of those issues that take, they need to go back home or something like that and spend some time there. Um, and there isn't that taken away from the business as well. Like is there, is there some sort of balance there, or do you find that there's great dividends because the person is now comes back refresh because the issue has been addressed or something like that.

[00:51:42] Well, you know, if it is going to hurt the business, what we try to do is. You know, get them to talk about like, you know, how can we solve both problems, get them, you know, whatever time or whatever it is they need while still getting, you know, commitments done that we've all committed to. So, you know, it might be hiring somebody for, you know, a month to just help with this specific task.

[00:52:08] So we really, you know, because it's so open with us, we want people to be part of the solution and, and it's like a good thing if they tell you before it becomes a problem, right? Cause so we can kind of work on it together and that it is not a problem. That's, that's the way we try to approach. Yeah. What an incredibly forward looking sort of attitude as well.

[00:52:34] Uh, it'd be great to work in a team like that, like that, wouldn't it. Um, so Lisa, just in your experience with different organizations, I hope you don't mind me coming back to you, um, in your experience, like how do you manage those team members? And you look at them, you know what, they're not going through entrepreneurial Burnett, but they're actually going through a brunette in themselves.

[00:52:56] What are some of the things that you have done, which would be really practical for, um, for some of the audience here to take on board, get any thoughts around that? I do. And thank you for reaching out to me. Um, so I think overall that we are in a burnout culture and I think that it's extremely difficult.

[00:53:17] Um, I mean Michelle's recommendations and how she approaches things are awesome, but it has to come from the top down. And if it's not supported from the top down, which I would say 95% of the time, it's not. And it's very, um, sad because people really don't, um, have the support that they need. And, you know, with everything that we've been through in the pandemic, like there's a bunch of studies where, you know, kind of in the midst of the great resignation where people are just saying, look like I don't feel supported.

[00:53:47] I quit and they're, you know, recreating their lives. And I think that it's, it's, it's a massive shift that. If I had to, what I see happening is more from the, you know, I watch my clients and their businesses and how they're either supporting or not supporting their, their teams. And they're creating a positive culture or not a positive culture, but I think for the most part, um, it, it's, it's a massive problem.

[00:54:17] It's an, it needs a radical change and it's not something that little tweaks are gonna solve. It needs to come from leadership and from the top down and across all boards and the awareness is starting to come like from the media and, you know, having this clubhouse discussion. But I see it as, as, as a massive, massive, massive problem across the workforce that is getting a correction right now.

[00:54:42] Is it really coming from caring for the people from before your team, a genuine caring, it's not caring with hooks or like I'm only caring for you cause I want to get more out of you. It's actually genuinely. Um, I can tell the difference. People can tell the difference, count that, but I mean, they can tell the difference, but here's the thing is that people still have responsibilities and they still have to make their goals and they still have to, you know, jump through certain hoops to make their bonus or to do certain things.

[00:55:15] So, you know, it's this vicious cycle that, you know, it's, it's hard to balance that when there's such extreme things happening. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Like we can look at like a person, um, and suicide. They want to be, they need to be really looked after like a member of the team, but at the same time, they still need to be able to fulfill their job.

[00:55:43] Um, and if they're not fulfilling their job, then how, you know what, uh, there's a higher calling almost. Uh, and that is to the business because there's a lot of other people's jobs may depend upon it. And I agree with that, but one of the things I found, even with my own team, we've had the same team now for the same core team I'm talking about for, well over a decade.

[00:56:08] And we've the number one thing we've tried to emphasize is open communication. If you're going through something personally, or you're going through something in the business, or you're struggling with something to communicate. And we found that it's really worked well to have that two-way communication.

[00:56:27] So there'll be at times, even as one of the founders of the company, I'll, I'll sit down with the team, say, Hey, I'm really struggling here with this particular project or something. I need some help. Uh, I, you able to help and be vulnerable like that before them. And I found that the team really has responded.

[00:56:46] They respond incredibly well. And, uh, And we then look after them from, from a remuneration perspective as well, because we, we appreciate them so much, but it's sort of like the old, the intrinsic and the intrinsic rewards. Each you can go along and give it extrinsic rewards, but the intrinsic ones are just showing some gratitude in many respects as well.

[00:57:10] And just saying, thank you. Um, and just even will, this clubhouse thing was going, and one of the guys had been up all night and everything like that. He just, once again, went above and beyond and, and a simple, thank you. He usually knows I've been on this. I just typed a simple thank you to him. And he was just like smiley faces galore coming back.

[00:57:33] And you know, that means the world to me, but I need to think what else can I do? Amazing amazing, incredibly loyal, committed team member. What can I do to look after him? Yeah. Cause those sort of people are with gold. So I've crossed you Colin. And just as we begin to wrap things up for today, I'm looking at, uh, entrepreneurial burnout.

[00:57:57] Is this a sort of thing that you find is actually quite difficult to manage, um, in a team, particularly as the business grows and it had, these quants sometimes needs different types of team in that growth prospect of how do you manage that? The fact that someone may not be able to come on the whole journey and then a burning out and you've just, you've got to let them go.

[00:58:21] Have you ever experienced that sort of thing? Yeah. I, I, you know, when I will say, as company grows, um, my last company that was Topia, we had 600 employees, uh, and they were located all over the world and. You know, being able to influence a culture like that can be very challenging. And, you know, working with my CEO coach, we were able to set up four key pillars for the company.

[00:58:48] And, you know, there were phrases, uh, first and foremost is respect, recognize greatness. Um, these were a couple of the pillars that we set up and, uh, uh, when our customers succeed, we succeed, man. This is like 18 years ago and I can still remember them. Uh, but my point here is, is that, you know, it's important to try to build a culture and set up these pillars and share these pillars with your team members and with their entire company as it grows so that your culture can exp can, can be scaled as well, or often than not, you know, small businesses trying to become bigger, but the wheels begin to come off the bus because the culture can not say.

[00:59:30] Uh, yeah, I'm ready to do the summation of a, we've got some really cool things going on and start-up club. Um, so let me know when you're ready to yeah, yeah. Wait, wait, let me just wrap it up. I think entrepreneurial burnout is real. It really is. Well, and if you haven't experienced yet, you may end up experienced if you keep on trashing on, on, through, uh, through, um, issues with your business and things like that.

[00:59:56] But yeah, and to get that balance to your life is so critical and you realize that you actually can't consistently work seven days a week, um, 52 weeks a year. You just can't do it. We need to get refreshed, need those times away. We need those times with our family and loved ones and you know what they need you as well.

[01:00:17] They need you, but more than that, what your business actually needs is your mind refreshed and renewed and ready to go. And I know myself. Uh, I really try to allocate, um, the weekends for that to get refreshed. So that on Monday, Friday, I am going let out the whole time I'm going, going, going. Yeah. But those weekends are my times of renewal as such.

[01:00:45] I hope you've enjoyed this topic of taking a look at entrepreneur Burnett. It's, it's one that I'm actually really passionate about myself and something that I think, I think we may have to come back to again, um, in another session of the complete entrepreneur, but sadly our time is up and Colin, I would love to hear about what's going on with startup.cloud what's happening now.

[01:01:08] So first of all, if you're not on.com and sign up to her.

[01:01:20] Hey, Colin. I think you're breaking up. So you must be going through a dead zone. What am I do square across to Jeff. Jeff. So do you, can you just, well, Colin comes through the desert and there, and you're able to tell us what's going on with up though. So, um, as, as we mentioned at the beginning of the show, the recording of the complete entrepreneur and many other show recordings are available This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., which is the website for startup club.

[01:01:47] We've got a lot of regular rooms that happen like tomorrow, tomorrow at 2:00 PM. Eastern is the serial entrepreneur hour, um, where we decode what makes a serial entrepreneur tick. And we're going to be focusing on, uh, interesting discussions about branding. And we have a very special guest. The following Friday, the founder of the artist shaving will be joining us.

[01:02:10] So there are always some interesting things going on and I believe we have. Uh, town hall, our start-up club town hall tomorrow afternoon at 3:00 PM Eastern time here on startup club. So we definitely encourage you to go over to startup.club where you can find recordings of the complete entrepreneur and other shows, and you can sign up for our mailing list so that you're kept informed of all the new events and special things going on here on start-up club on clubhouse.

[01:02:36] And I was going to add that we also have a new show. That's starting every Thursday at four o'clock. You're going to love this Michael it's lessons from the edge. And it's all about learning from failures and how entrepreneurs came back more often than not. We keep talking about as entrepreneurs. We keep talking about all our successes, but we learn a lot from learning about how people have made mistakes in the past.

[01:03:02] And that's a show we're going to run every Thursday from four to five o'clock Eastern lessons from the edge. Wow. That sounds like a great topic lessons from the edge, as long as not postcards from the edge though. Is it from that movie? But yeah, no. Fantastic. Look, let me tell you, you guys have been listening to the complete entrepreneur and we've been looking at the topic of entrepreneurial burnout, but next week, we're going to be taking a look at, should you always tell the truth?

[01:03:34] Should you always tell the truth? That's actually a really interesting question. Should you always tell the truth just before we go? I just want to say thank you very, very much. To, um, all of you in the audience has been great having you on board. Those people who've come up on stage and shared like that.

[01:03:54] That's the highlight of my week is to hear what you are saying. I've learned so much from the complete entrepreneur and myself, Andrew, my fellow moderators for Jeff, for Colin, for Michelle, your wisdom and your advice is, is just fabulous. So thank you very much. I look forward to seeing the next week at 5:00 PM Eastern time on Thursday, for sure.

[01:04:16] You always tell the truth on the complete entrepreneur. My name is Michael Gilmour. I'm your host. And I look forward to seeing you then.

Is it really worth it?
 

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